Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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ajsmith
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by ajsmith »

The film inserts from the Orange Bicycle edition of Colour Me Pop (broadcast 26/7.69) as discovered in 2017 by Kaleidoscope are silent, and no off air audio is known to exist.

The fllm inserts were made for 2 cover songs the band performed, which they never made studio recordings of. 'Let's Spend The Night Together' and 'Hazy Shade of Winter'. Kal were able to reconstruct the 'Hazy Shade' clip by pairing it with a BBC radio session recording of the song the group made which survived on a transcription disc, and this was shown at the Kal Pop event in July 2017; but no Orange Bicycle recording of 'Lets Spend The Night Together' seems to be at large. If anyone knows anything about an off-air of this show's soundtrack or any Orange Bicycle radio sessions that could contain this Stones cover, please get in touch!

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Ronco »

Why was Ben Lyon's stuff turned down initially?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ronco wrote:Why was Ben Lyon's stuff turned down initially?
In general, nobody except kaleidoscope bothers with audio-only. They assume it's from a microphone so pretty low quality. It's useless to its owners because it's not commercially viable. The BBC takes it back if you happen to speak to the right person by a miracle.

This is one of the reasons, sadly, why so many audio that must have existed (as Doctor Who proves) has never turned up. Someone did phone or contact the authorities, but was told to hop it.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by stearn »

I was told that the BBC had enough representative examples of Life With The Lyons, both in the Sound Archive and those issued by Transcription Services, and the tapes went to ORCA. Of course, this was well before BBC7 (Radio4Extra) were even thought about, so it does make some sense, and they were not binned. These were professionally recorded reels of tape.

Spiny, it depends on what you mean by audio only, but even then, it isn't true that only KAL take audio. ORCA have existed longer than KAL and RadioCircle have been running quietly in the background for over two decades. Both have offered and returned vast quantities of audio to the BBC, RadioCircle especially, including TV soundtrack where they turn up. You are right, a TV soundtrack is less likely to be accepted for a number of issues, but the bottom line is how useful something will be.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by brigham »

Spiny Norman wrote:
brigham wrote:There are home recordings of television from the 1932-35 BBC era, made on domestic disc recorders, so presumably there will also be 'normal' radio broadcasts from that period.
Are there? If you mean sound AND picture, they were far from domestic, those are experimental discs that couldn't even be played back at the time.
No, only the picture was recorded.
In those days, you needed separate receivers for sound and picture, so enthusiasts like Marcus Games tended to concentrate on recording the vision signal, which, of course was the 'latest thing'.
There were various commercially-available home recorders at the time, mostly in the form of add-ons for an existing gramophone, and often not cheap. They were far from 'experimental', though.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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brigham wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
brigham wrote:There are home recordings of television from the 1932-35 BBC era, made on domestic disc recorders, so presumably there will also be 'normal' radio broadcasts from that period.
Are there? If you mean sound AND picture, they were far from domestic, those are experimental discs that couldn't even be played back at the time.
No, only the picture was recorded.
In those days, you needed separate receivers for sound and picture, so enthusiasts like Marcus Games tended to concentrate on recording the vision signal, which, of course was the 'latest thing'.
There were various commercially-available home recorders at the time, mostly in the form of add-ons for an existing gramophone, and often not cheap. They were far from 'experimental', though.
Sorry but I am doubtful if you aren't mixing things up. AUDIO recording, yes, sure, by disc, or on wire recorders.
But video? How did they even play it back?
Now I know wikipedia shouldn't be seen as the final word, but isn't this accurate then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonovision
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Spiny Norman »

stearn wrote:Spiny, it depends on what you mean by audio only, but even then, it isn't true that only KAL take audio. ORCA have existed longer than KAL and RadioCircle have been running quietly in the background for over two decades. Both have offered and returned vast quantities of audio to the BBC, RadioCircle especially, including TV soundtrack where they turn up. You are right, a TV soundtrack is less likely to be accepted for a number of issues, but the bottom line is how useful something will be.
By audio-only I mean tv program's soundtracks. But that ORCA group is fairly invisible, and RadioCircle do not maintain a library themselves, it seems? So if the BBC then refuses, it's still at risk. The BBC and the BFI and the British Library will refuse, so it's then up to less official groups like these three. (I recently emailed RadioCircle about a radio program, but never heard back.)
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by brigham »

The BBC Television broadcasts of 1932-35 were on Medium Wave from Brookman's Park. Vision 261.6 metres. Sound 398.9 metres.
The vision signal was designed to fit into the 9kc/s channel of the Geneva Plan, and was broadcast as if it were audio. It could, therefore, be recorded using the same type of domestic recorder marketed for sound.
Thankfully, a number of enthusiasts did just that, and so today we can have an insight of what programming actually looked like in those far-off days.
For those here who have never seen the low-definition mechanically-scanned television typical of this era, I would recommend that you endeavour to do so. It is a highly rewarding experience, and the 'hands-on' nature of the apparatus, much of which is simple and hand-constructed, makes it available to even the non-technically minded.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by stearn »

RadioCircle don't maintain a PUBLIC archive, but we are as secure and future proofed as the BBC - moreso, if I am honest - and extremely extensive. Just because we don't shout from the rooftops saying how good we are doesn't mean we aren't fantastic at what we do.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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stearn wrote:RadioCircle don't maintain a PUBLIC archive, but we are as secure and future proofed as the BBC - moreso, if I am honest - and extremely extensive. Just because we don't shout from the rooftops saying how good we are doesn't mean we aren't fantastic at what we do.
Steve, if you are one of them, :) could you perhaps confirm my suspicion that this program no longer exists? https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/24b7f3a144a ... dc72a41eac
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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brigham wrote:The BBC Television broadcasts of 1932-35 were on Medium Wave from Brookman's Park. Vision 261.6 metres. Sound 398.9 metres.
The vision signal was designed to fit into the 9kc/s channel of the Geneva Plan, and was broadcast as if it were audio. It could, therefore, be recorded using the same type of domestic recorder marketed for sound.
Thankfully, a number of enthusiasts did just that, and so today we can have an insight of what programming actually looked like in those far-off days.
For those here who have never seen the low-definition mechanically-scanned television typical of this era, I would recommend that you endeavour to do so. It is a highly rewarding experience, and the 'hands-on' nature of the apparatus, much of which is simple and hand-constructed, makes it available to even the non-technically minded.
But what you can find on the following site is in fact all of the known recordings. Really not a lot. So it's quite safe to say that it never left the experimental stage. The people other than Baird who recorded such a signal must have been romantics, because there was no way for them to ever play it back - after all, you couldn't connect a 78 phonograph to a mechanical televisor.
http://www.tvdawn.com/
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by stearn »

To my knowledge it doesn't exist - certainly not listed in the BBC Sound Archive and doesn't look to have been issued by Transcription Services and it isn't among the RadioCircle holdings. I'm guessing you have tried the Rep Company (or their successors) themselves, or perhaps tracked down the author if still alive.

There may be some paperwork at Caversham, and that may give some indication of the limitations on the broadcast - it was an adaptation by the author of his play, so there may have been express conditions for destruction so that future theatre production wasn't adversely affected.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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stearn wrote:To my knowledge it doesn't exist - certainly not listed in the BBC Sound Archive and doesn't look to have been issued by Transcription Services and it isn't among the RadioCircle holdings. I'm guessing you have tried the Rep Company (or their successors) themselves, or perhaps tracked down the author if still alive.

There may be some paperwork at Caversham, and that may give some indication of the limitations on the broadcast - it was an adaptation by the author of his play, so there may have been express conditions for destruction so that future theatre production wasn't adversely affected.
Thanks. Luckily I was realistic in my expectations. (Although it is not completely impossible that I may still hear from (a relative of) the author.)
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by brigham »

Spiny Norman wrote:But what you can find on the following site is in fact all of the known recordings. Really not a lot. So it's quite safe to say that it never left the experimental stage. The people other than Baird who recorded such a signal must have been romantics, because there was no way for them to ever play it back - after all, you couldn't connect a 78 phonograph to a mechanical televisor.
The whole of television in the early '30s was 'experimental'. No-one is denying that.
The domestic audio recorders were 'far from experimental', as I correctly pointed out.
I cannot believe that you have never seen a domestic wireless set with a 'gram socket. That socket is for plugging-in a domestic '78 phonograph'.
The people who were watching television in the Low-Definition era were not 'romantics', they were pioneers. Often the same pioneers who spent so much time ten years earlier, with long lengths of overhead wire and crystals, poking around with a 'cat's whisker'.
There are in existence, thankfully, domestic off-air recordings of BBC low-definition television, and ALL of them don't include the sound. This is a fact. It brooks no denial.
When you have built a mechanical televisor; when you have connected it to a period-type amplifier, and have seen that magical image come into view from the swirling mist of orange lines, I would be pleased to hear from you. The hobby grows through the mutual sharing of experience.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by John McE »

To answer the original post, if the episode of Crossroads you mention is the one that starts back at the Motel, immediately after the climax at the church, then it was me that returned it.

I used to rush home from school to catch Crossroads, which was on at 4.20pm. Sometimes the bus was late and I only caught the last ten minutes, so in this instance, as it was an especially exciting storyline, I asked my mother to record it on my new reel-to-reel tape recorder.

As with many other findings, the tape sat in a box for donkey's years, before I dug it out and returned it.

And before anyone asks, this was the only episode of Crossroads that I kept, more's the pity.

On another topic, regarding Dusty Springfield's ITV series, although this was junked by ITV, various Dusty fans recorded the series on audiotape.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Spiny Norman »

brigham wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:But what you can find on the following site is in fact all of the known recordings. Really not a lot. So it's quite safe to say that it never left the experimental stage. The people other than Baird who recorded such a signal must have been romantics, because there was no way for them to ever play it back - after all, you couldn't connect a 78 phonograph to a mechanical televisor.
The whole of television in the early '30s was 'experimental'. No-one is denying that.
The domestic audio recorders were 'far from experimental', as I correctly pointed out.
I cannot believe that you have never seen a domestic wireless set with a 'gram socket. That socket is for plugging-in a domestic '78 phonograph'.
The people who were watching television in the Low-Definition era were not 'romantics', they were pioneers. Often the same pioneers who spent so much time ten years earlier, with long lengths of overhead wire and crystals, poking around with a 'cat's whisker'.
There are in existence, thankfully, domestic off-air recordings of BBC low-definition television, and ALL of them don't include the sound. This is a fact. It brooks no denial.
When you have built a mechanical televisor; when you have connected it to a period-type amplifier, and have seen that magical image come into view from the swirling mist of orange lines, I would be pleased to hear from you. The hobby grows through the mutual sharing of experience.
Is there a specific thing that I said earlier that jarred? Because you're coming up with new things that weren't the issue, that you know I didn't say, and I'm not sure what we're arguing about.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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stearn wrote:To my knowledge it doesn't exist - certainly not listed in the BBC Sound Archive and doesn't look to have been issued by Transcription Services and it isn't among the RadioCircle holdings. I'm guessing you have tried the Rep Company (or their successors) themselves, or perhaps tracked down the author if still alive.

There may be some paperwork at Caversham, and that may give some indication of the limitations on the broadcast - it was an adaptation by the author of his play, so there may have been express conditions for destruction so that future theatre production wasn't adversely affected.
PS Ah I saw your email, thanks for that. But luckily the question was already solved.
And also, if there were any TV audio tracks from the list above, they would have been picked up on, right?
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by brigham »

Spiny Norman wrote: Is there a specific thing that I said earlier that jarred? Because you're coming up with new things that weren't the issue, that you know I didn't say, and I'm not sure what we're arguing about.
We aren't arguing.
I stated a fact, and you contradicted it.
That isn't an argument, that's just contradiction.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Mark »

John McE wrote:To answer the original post, if the episode of Crossroads you mention is the one that starts back at the Motel, immediately after the climax at the church, then it was me that returned it.

I used to rush home from school to catch Crossroads, which was on at 4.20pm. Sometimes the bus was late and I only caught the last ten minutes, so in this instance, as it was an especially exciting storyline, I asked my mother to record it on my new reel-to-reel tape recorder.

As with many other findings, the tape sat in a box for donkey's years, before I dug it out and returned it.

And before anyone asks, this was the only episode of Crossroads that I kept, more's the pity.

On another topic, regarding Dusty Springfield's ITV series, although this was junked by ITV, various Dusty fans recorded the series on audiotape.
Yes, that's the one,what a great story, thanks for sharing, it's a shame it was the only one ( I had visions of loads of them about) but thank goodness you did it, it was, as you say, a very interesting exciting storyline.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Mark »

According to the "Garage Tapes" doc, Ernie Wise also had disc copies of their radio show "You're Only Young Once" made.

On Victor Lewis Smith's twitter page, he has said he's just added Audio to a long lost mute Hancock sketch, not sure if it's the original audio or a re-dub with the new recordings team, but it's for a Hancock doc at Christmas,( there's also two other docs on Peter Sellers and Kenneth Williams) should be very good.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by stearn »

Disc copies of You're Only Young Once (YOYO) were returned to the BBC many years ago. From memory, Northern Home Service with a limited repeat on the (London) Home Service and there were indications on the labels that they were recordings of the latter.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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Mark wrote:According to the "Garage Tapes" doc, Ernie Wise also had disc copies of their radio show "You're Only Young Once" made.

On Victor Lewis Smith's twitter page, he has said he's just added Audio to a long lost mute Hancock sketch, not sure if it's the original audio or a re-dub with the new recordings team, but it's for a Hancock doc at Christmas,( there's also two other docs on Peter Sellers and Kenneth Williams) should be very good.
I didn't know there was mute Hancock footage? Too bad that the chap from the Appreciation Society has only just passed away.

(Isn't he that Russian mouthpiece?)
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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brigham wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Is there a specific thing that I said earlier that jarred? Because you're coming up with new things that weren't the issue, that you know I didn't say, and I'm not sure what we're arguing about.
We aren't arguing.
I stated a fact, and you contradicted it.
That isn't an argument, that's just contradiction.
It's more of a dead parrot. You made it sound as if it was a regular thing. Like, "People were going to the moon in the 1960s." Technically it's true... Just not a lot! In fact I'd say more people have been on the moon than were recording interbellum television.
You can't deny, that with the possible exception of Baird, no-one was able to play back those recordings.
Similarly, steam power had already been discovered in the 1st century AD. But could you really claim that the Alexandrians had steam engines if all they did was use it for party tricks? The idea simply came too early to be succesful.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Mark »

stearn wrote:Disc copies of You're Only Young Once (YOYO) were returned to the BBC many years ago. From memory, Northern Home Service with a limited repeat on the (London) Home Service and there were indications on the labels that they were recordings of the latter.
On the "Garage Tapes" doc, it was Ernie's wife who states, when the 'boys' did a show in Manchester ( Hulme Hippodrome was it?) Ernie bought them off the chap who made the discs.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Mark »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mark wrote:According to the "Garage Tapes" doc, Ernie Wise also had disc copies of their radio show "You're Only Young Once" made.

On Victor Lewis Smith's twitter page, he has said he's just added Audio to a long lost mute Hancock sketch, not sure if it's the original audio or a re-dub with the new recordings team, but it's for a Hancock doc at Christmas,( there's also two other docs on Peter Sellers and Kenneth Williams) should be very good.
I didn't know there was mute Hancock footage? Too bad that the chap from the Appreciation Society has only just passed away.

(Isn't he that Russian mouthpiece?)
The mute Hancock footage is news to me as well.

On the subject of the British Library, perhaps not TV audio, but they do take domestic Radio recordings, as I was looking at some of the "Clitheroe Kid" episodes listed ( and who contributed them) one or two of them are not in the BBC sound archive, although they could be among the TS recordings I suppose.
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by prisoner5 »

I'm glad other people used to record from their tv on to reel to reel tape recorders, i used to tape theme music from mostly U.S programmes, all neatly so they played one after the other,and my other obbession was to tape the Universal logo music at the end of shows like Columbo to separate my pop music singles, i would get everything set up, reels, mic and move quickly as the credits rolled hoping they(the tv station) didn't cut it off. The American tv logo's seemed more exciting than ours, but liked atv's, lwt, htv, pity Granada never had a musical logo.
Thinking of themes Grizzly Adams and Littlest Hobo were great.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by brigham »

You WANTED to hear that infuriating blare at the end of Columbo?
I couldn't get out of my chair quick enough to turn the sound down!

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by prisoner5 »

Yes, i liked it, still do, at that time i used it at the end of a chart hit before another record and would top and tail it so on ...also liked that hammer logo, was it mark seven productions, Jack Webb.

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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

Post by Mark »

How did you get on with avoiding continuity announcements over the music ?, it was always a risk when I was doing themes!
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Re: Audio of missing TV, or TV with audio missing

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Mark wrote:How did you get on with avoiding continuity announcements over the music ?, it was always a risk when I was doing themes!
Curse and try again the next time?
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