Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

What's not currently on the box
Post Reply
ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Just a general technical question. Does anyone know if the telerecordings of the science fiction serial Timeslip use a magnetic soundtrack? I've seen telerecordings with an optical soundtrack but they usually sound quite poor. But with the telerecordings of timeslip they sound especially good. Perhaps a very good optical soundtrack? It's just a bit strange as usually telerecordings (that I've seen anyway) sound quite poor unless a magnetic soundtrack is used eg. On The 35mm transmission telerecordings that exist for doctor who. Does anyone know. I'm not an expert but perhaps someone can enlighten me. Thanks

fatcat
D-MAC
Posts: 837
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:02 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by fatcat »

Reproduction of optical soundtracks has come along way in the 21st Century. To light the path of the track to the pick up cell, the old way was to use a typical filament bulb... however, the filament had to be perfect to get the best-focused light blade *' onto the pick-up cell ..and so bulbs that looked the same as any typical light bulb of the size (but had better filaments ) were specified (exciter bulbs) as replacements for a sound 'light' ..They were still not perfect and as they aged the filament would also start to sag and bulb discolour which added to the problems to the reproduced sound and so it could sound lacking in some way .

Of course it was less of a problem with wider film like 35mm as focusing of the light blade* was easier, it being larger a finer blade of light could be focused.

Today they use a LED that either had a better white colour, or in many cases now a red LED (which was needed for later films with coloured sound tracks which didn't absorb IR light, but is still compatible with old film) and can focus better on the film through to an even more sensitive photocell .

Not saying that is the actual case with your Timeslip but maybe a possibility.

Light Blade* .....like the gap on a tape recorder head, a minute shaft of light that scans the film as it passes and as with a tape recorder head the finer the gap and the finer the light blade the better the reproduction



.

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Thanks for the information. Fascinating read.

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

The "Timeslip" 16mm FR's must have good quality Optical ones, I would have thought.
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

User avatar
Spiny Norman
D-MAC
Posts: 884
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Spiny Norman »

fatcat wrote:
Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:20 am
Reproduction of optical soundtracks has come along way in the 21st Century. To light the path of the track to the pick up cell, the old way was to use a typical filament bulb... however, the filament had to be perfect to get the best-focused light blade *' onto the pick-up cell ..and so bulbs that looked the same as any typical light bulb of the size (but had better filaments ) were specified (exciter bulbs) as replacements for a sound 'light' ..They were still not perfect and as they aged the filament would also start to sag and bulb discolour which added to the problems to the reproduced sound and so it could sound lacking in some way .

Of course it was less of a problem with wider film like 35mm as focusing of the light blade* was easier, it being larger a finer blade of light could be focused.

Today they use a LED that either had a better white colour, or in many cases now a red LED (which was needed for later films with coloured sound tracks which didn't absorb IR light, but is still compatible with old film) and can focus better on the film through to an even more sensitive photocell .

Not saying that is the actual case with your Timeslip but maybe a possibility.

Light Blade* .....like the gap on a tape recorder head, a minute shaft of light that scans the film as it passes and as with a tape recorder head the finer the gap and the finer the light blade the better the reproduction



.
Makes you wish some things would be redone. Early programs, like a certain BBC SF series, don't have that good audio, especially some consonants like the S.
This is nøt å signåture.™

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Quatermass and the pit sounds good in most places as a magnetic soundtrack was used in the compilation version I think and optical sound was used for some sections that were cut out in the compilation version.

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Slightly off topic in this thread but is the 35mm recording with magnetic soundtrack of out of the unknown episode-The machine stops the original transmission master? Likewise were any of the first series episodes recorded onto 35mm for transmission and what ones were recorded on VT? In the dvd booklet it says some episodes had film sequences spliced into them and they looked very good. So were some 16mm telerecordings reduction negatives/prints from 35mm?

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

Not sure of the top of my head, will have to check.

That happened with "Adam Adamant Lives!", certainly, and episodes of "Doctor Who", of course.
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

ian b
D-MAC
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ian b »

ArchiveTvfan43 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:27 pm
Slightly off topic in this thread but is the 35mm recording with magnetic soundtrack of out of the unknown episode-The machine stops the original transmission master? Likewise were any of the first series episodes recorded onto 35mm for transmission and what ones were recorded on VT? In the dvd booklet it says some episodes had film sequences spliced into them and they looked very good. So were some 16mm telerecordings reduction negatives/prints from 35mm?
When a studio production originated on 35mm it's much more likely that Enterprises did the easier thing and just continued to order up a 16mm TR in the usual way - for example one episode of THE DALEK INVASION OF EARTH exists as a 35mm recording in the film library, but the Enterprises sold (and kept) it as a 16mm film recording from the transmission (or an internal playout to the film recorder) rather than having a 16mm negative made from the 35mm master recording.

ian b
D-MAC
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ian b »

ArchiveTvfan43 wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:27 pm
In the dvd booklet it says some episodes had film sequences spliced into them and they looked very good.
The taped episodes of GHOST SQUAD had their original film sequences spliced back into the film recordings - not all together successfully, as there are a fair few original crossfades and disssolves which aren't as smooth as they once were due to slight misalignment between the film recorded image and the original film.

ian b
D-MAC
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ian b »

ArchiveTvfan43 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:56 pm
Just a general technical question. Does anyone know if the telerecordings of the science fiction serial Timeslip use a magnetic soundtrack? I've seen telerecordings with an optical soundtrack but they usually sound quite poor. But with the telerecordings of timeslip they sound especially good. Perhaps a very good optical soundtrack?
I'm pretty certain that there are no mag tracks for TIMESLIP - and, apart from the single colour episode, just a set of film recording prints (and no negatives).

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Yes I was told online that they were returned by new Zealand. What happened to the negatives I don't know. So did anyone ever get to the bottom of what happened to the other tapes of timeslip? Damaged and disposed of or wiped? From what I've read on this forum and others nobody could agree on the fate. I think with another ATV serial called the jensen code all of it now exists on B&W negatives but there is a 625 line tape of episode 6 that still exists but is badly damaged.

ian b
D-MAC
Posts: 662
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:58 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ian b »

As can be seen on the dvd release, episode six of THE JENSEN CODE is only “badly damaged” in that it cuts off before its end - it's missing two lines of dialogue and the end credits, (about 1'15" worth). Although there’s some slight clicking on the soundtrack too.

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Sorry I have not seen it I have just read reviews. Would you recommend buying the serial in general is it any good?

rosalyn
405 lines
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:51 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by rosalyn »

ian b wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:47 am
ArchiveTvfan43 wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:56 pm
Just a general technical question. Does anyone know if the telerecordings of the science fiction serial Timeslip use a magnetic soundtrack? I've seen telerecordings with an optical soundtrack but they usually sound quite poor. But with the telerecordings of timeslip they sound especially good. Perhaps a very good optical soundtrack?
I'm pretty certain that there are no mag tracks for TIMESLIP - and, apart from the single colour episode, just a set of film recording prints (and no negatives).
I came by the opportunity to go through the ITC archive holdings while visiting its London office, looking for specific items, and to partially audit some of it. It must have been way back in the 1980's and I remember researching TIMESLIP. The only information I was able to find back then was that for the 16mm film recordings which had a combined optical soundtrack. I couldn't see any details about international dubs or separate mag tracks. I did find the VT number for the only surviving 2" Quadruplex colour tape, which you all know about. I did write the number down I recall.

As I understand, much was lost/junked after ATV became Central and material was shipped down the motorway from the TV Centre in Birmingham to ITC's facility out near Heathrow. Where the junking occurred, Birmingham or London, no-one was telling.

The 2" masters of THRILLER were kept though, as were the tapes of ATV's FATHER BROWN series starring Kenneth Moore, possibly because of their international resale value due to them featuring internationally known stars.

Unfortunately TIMESLIP, THE JENSEN CODE, and indeed ESCAPE INTO NIGHT, all originally in colour, were by comparison considered childrens' fayre, and so any further resale potential internationally was perhaps unlikely, especially as by now most of these series were around ten-years-old.

What turned up on the original Carlton DVD release of TIMESLIP back in the 2000's is exactly what I had discovered myself trawling through ITC's listings some ten or more years earlier. I felt Carlton did do the right thing by releasing the final part of the 'Ice Box' story in colour, unlike the previous VHS tapes of it which were all in black and white. If any of you here were involved with the Carlton release, praise you. Although not ideal, that one colour episode did give a tantalising glimpse of what TIMESLIP actually looked like when it was first on.

brigham
HD
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by brigham »

The Carlton DVD set was my first exposure to Timeslip in colour.
Up to then, It hadn't even occurred to me that it was originally transmitted so, despite having watched every episode 'when it was first on'.

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

So did the videotape of ice box 6 just survive by chance? Odd how all but one tape is left. It's really sad what happened to the original colour copies because they were apparently not worth keeping because they were just a "Children's programme" Yes these programmes were made for children but are so creatively and intelligently written that no question they were worth keep for posterity. Yes we are very lucky to have telerecordings of all episodes of these serials but some of the viewing experience is lost as these programmes were intended to be viewed a certain way-In colour. One last question is the 2016 Network dvd release of TIMESLIP The same masters used in the Carlton DVD release or new remastering. As I said I'm not an expert and only have minute knowledge of stuff like this but were the episodes Vidfired?

rosalyn
405 lines
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:51 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by rosalyn »

brigham wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:39 pm
The Carlton DVD set was my first exposure to Timeslip in colour.
Up to then, It hadn't even occurred to me that it was originally transmitted so, despite having watched every episode 'when it was first on'.
Like you, I only saw the first broadcast of TIMESLIP in 1970-71 in black and white, although I was aware it was made in colour because of the 'Colour Production' ident at the end. Lucky for me then that it was repeated end of 1973 through until around March 1974 in my region, and by then we had a colour set at home. So I got to see the whole lot in colour except for the ones that were made in black and white because of a strike. From memory it was either the last part, or the last two parts, of 'The Burn Up' in black and white, and all of 'The Day of the Clone', except for the very last episode which I clearly remember being the only segment of that story broadcast in colour.

I was stunned to learn THE JENSEN CODE only exists in black and white. I remember seeing both the original run AND the repeat broadcast in colour.

Sadly, I don't think any other elements of these shows exist anymore other than the 16mm films and the occasional 2" tape. We can always hope though. :-)

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

Just regarding the comparison between shows shot directly on film and videotape. Videotape is lower quality but from what I can see the audio on videotape is much better than sound on film. However film is great quality usually. I was watching THE PRISONER on blu ray and the 35mm elements look brilliant. I'm sure even more detail could be brought out with a 4k scan.

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

I also remember watching "Timeslip" on original broadcast in B/W, as we didn't get a colour TV until November 71, but saw the repeat in 73/74.

There are a other ATV series in the same situation, such as "Fly Into Danger", with only two of the seven surviving in colour, and not just Children's shows, "Spyders Web" has only two of thirteen in colour, and one of those is damaged.
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

ArchiveTvfan43 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:16 pm
Just regarding the comparison between shows shot directly on film and videotape. Videotape is lower quality but from what I can see the audio on videotape is much better than sound on film. However film is great quality usually. I was watching THE PRISONER on blu ray and the 35mm elements look brilliant. I'm sure even more detail could be brought out with a 4k scan.
The sound on the one-hour "Danger Man" episodes isn't always that good, I must say.

On film recordings, IIRC the sound on the existing three episodes of the "Who" serial "The Tenth Planet" was replaced with off-air Audio.
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

ArchiveTvfan43
405 lines
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by ArchiveTvfan43 »

On the faceless ones animation dvd I they replaced the optical audio with graham strongs recordings on the surviving episodes 1 and 3 and they sound a lot better now than when they were on the lost in time dvd set. As far as I know its the same masters used for that dvd as there wasn't enough budget for a new restoration but the audio has been improved.

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

The various "Doctor Who" off-air audios that are around are excellent, and another set from a different source turned up a year or so ago, again very high quality.
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

rosalyn
405 lines
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:51 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by rosalyn »

I know this is drifting a little bit from the topic of the audio, but looking at the Wikipedia entry for Timeslip online I've noticed this...

"Timeslip was first broadcast on Friday evenings at around 5:10-5:15pm in the ATV region with the other ITV regions broadcasting the series on the following Monday."

This isn't right. Timeslip was broadcast on Monday on ATV at 5.15, whilst Thames and Southern followed with the same episode on Friday at 5.20.
I know this because I recall seeing the 'Ice Box' episode where Dr Edith Joynton dies, twice in the same week. Firstly on Monday at my grandparents house in ATV land, and then again at home in London on the Friday.

Also on the official Timeslip website it says the following about 'The Day of the Clone'.

"Episodes 22 & 23 were recorded in black and white due to industrial action."

So only two episodes were recorded in black and white?

I remember vividly all of the last story being shown in black and white in 1974 except for the final episode, and indeed it has prompted me to get out the DVDs to check. Indeed episodes 21, 22, 23, and 24 all have the 'An ATV Production' end board indicating that these were all recorded in black and white, whilst the final two, 25, and 26 have 'An ATV Colour Production' end board. As I understand from the documentary 'Behind the Barrier', 25 was recorded partially in colour and partially in black and white and so had to be outputted to black and white for transmission.

I'm sure my posting is going to annoy some people here with my nitpickiness, but there are things I am seeing published on line as fact contradict with what I actually remember watching. I would be highly delighted if anyone here can either corroborate what I'm saying or clear up any misunderstanding.

:-)

User avatar
Controller 2957
625 lines
Posts: 192
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:27 pm
Location: Derby, UK
Contact:

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Controller 2957 »

rosalyn wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:06 pm
I know this is drifting a little bit from the topic of the audio, but looking at the Wikipedia entry for Timeslip online I've noticed this...

"Timeslip was first broadcast on Friday evenings at around 5:10-5:15pm in the ATV region with the other ITV regions broadcasting the series on the following Monday."

This isn't right. Timeslip was broadcast on Monday on ATV at 5.15, whilst Thames and Southern followed with the same episode on Friday at 5.20.
I know this because I recall seeing the 'Ice Box' episode where Dr Edith Joynton dies, twice in the same week. Firstly on Monday at my grandparents house in ATV land, and then again at home in London on the Friday.

Also on the official Timeslip website it says the following about 'The Day of the Clone'.

"Episodes 22 & 23 were recorded in black and white due to industrial action."

So only two episodes were recorded in black and white?

I remember vividly all of the last story being shown in black and white in 1974 except for the final episode, and indeed it has prompted me to get out the DVDs to check. Indeed episodes 21, 22, 23, and 24 all have the 'An ATV Production' end board indicating that these were all recorded in black and white, whilst the final two, 25, and 26 have 'An ATV Colour Production' end board. As I understand from the documentary 'Behind the Barrier', 25 was recorded partially in colour and partially in black and white and so had to be outputted to black and white for transmission.

I'm sure my posting is going to annoy some people here with my nitpickiness, but there are things I am seeing published on line as fact contradict with what I actually remember watching. I would be highly delighted if anyone here can either corroborate what I'm saying or clear up any misunderstanding.

:-)
More information has since come to light about which episodes were in colour and which were in black & white.

Andrew Pixley's book - part of the Network DVD set - clarifies things no end!
You see, no-one... NO-ONE escapes the new world!!

The Official Timeslip Website
http://www.timeslip.org.uk

brigham
HD
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by brigham »

Wikipedia not right?

Never in this world!

Mark
Committee
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:26 am

Re: Timeslip telerecordings-(Audio question)

Post by Mark »

brigham wrote:
Fri Apr 17, 2020 7:55 am
Wikipedia not right?

Never in this world!
No-In an alternate one!
"A cup of Tea....Tea...Tea"

Post Reply