Grange Hill

[GarethR]

But what connection is there in each case between starting school and having formal reading lessons on the one hand,and learning to read?

It's very clear as far as I can see - children in most European countries don't begin learning to read until the age of 6 or 7. The idea that it's somehow necessary for children to arrive at school at age 5 already able to read is a peculiarly British notion that's grown up in the last 20 years or so.

I'm pretty sure that all the kids who started school when I did could read fairly well,for their age.

I can't remember the standard of reading skills of my classmates from 37 years ago, indeed I can't remember how well *I* could read when I started school, so I asked my mother (a primary school teacher from the 60s through to the early 90s). She said that schools preferred it if children could recognise their name written down, but that was all. They certainly didn't expect them to arrive already reading. As it turns out I was an early reader, mainly because my parents chose to encourage me, and there'd usually be a relative handful of early readers in each intake, but the majority of children arrived at school without any particular reading skills. That was normal.

[rachel leah]

I did not learn to read until age 8 when my parents noticed that the school wasn't doing it. They taught me then. I learned from them within 1 year. We are talking circa 1983-4. I wasn't a low IQ child.
I can imagine a child of lower intelligence getting left behind in the chaos or lack of seriousness.

I don't know when that Grange Hill story line is from but definitely during my time the way they taught you to read was to leave you with a book on your own and then 2 minutes with a teacher. They used a lot of "modern teaching methods". A bit pathetic really.

No offence, but didn't your parents teach you to read BEFORE you started school at age 5?. As they are supposed to do, as your parents.

No, My parents had the stupid illogical idea that a school is supposed to teach children to read and that is why we pay them thousands of pounds in taxes and make them compulsory.
A child is there from 9 till 3.30p.m each day so you'ed think they could manage it.
I understand perhaps a bit of back up and help from parents could be expected, but not that the parents should do the whole job.
(Sorry I am not annoyed at your question, just annoyed with the system and my memories of it.)

Also my parents were not British. In their old country it was accepted that the school did all the job. My Mum grew up in Israel in the 50's which was full of children of refugees/immigrants whose parents did not speak or read Hebrew, yet were taught to read perfectly well by the school alone. There were a lot of war orphans too who didn't have Mum and Dad to teach them to read. They used the same phonetics type teaching, rote learning and desks in rows facing the front that British schools did in the 50's. There was an intensive seriousness about it that I *suspect* used to exist in British schools many years ago but finished by the time Grange Hill came along...or at least by the time I came along.
I now live in Israel. My nephews only started school at age 6 with only the knowledge of how to write their name and a bit of familiarity with the alphabet. It's like Gareth said about schools in countries outside Britain starting later.

But going back to Britain - I am sure I wasn't the only one who started school who did not know how to read when I started at age 4/5. I am surprised your whole class did. I'm also surprised that the storyline came out in 1979. I expected it to be later. I only started watching in 1981.

Yes and Grange Hill was well observed in some ways, like Simon said some way back.

[SgtPepper]

I could definitely read when I started school. My father died when I was five and one my few memories of him is sitting on his lap with a comic and him teaching me to read. I don't remember what the divide was between those who could read and those who couldn't when I started school. Strangely I do remember the teacher being impressed with those of us who could tie our own shoe laces. :-) I don't think either of those talents is a sign of good or bad parenting, but to get to 11 like Simon Shaw was supposed to have is all around neglect by everyone.

[Mickey]

Neglect, perhaps, but it wasn't at all uncommon for dyslexic kids to be left to fend for themselves within the system. Simon was lucky to get help when he did.

Returning to an earlier subject, it really is a well observed show. I've been watching a few episodes, and I'm impressed all over again. The standard of acting does vary, certainly, but the characters are very well constructed, and for the most part the writing is of a high standard. Obviously you get your run-of-the-mill episodes, with kids worrying about clarinet lessons, etc, but the gradual rise of Gripper in the background is terrific. He has an ongoing battle with Mr Hopwood that nicely shows the frustration of an essentially helpless teacher (and I know there was a corporal punishment debate earlier in the thread, but let's be honest, it wouldn't have made any difference to Gripper). His victimisation of Roland, and complete lack of respect for anything or anybody is so believable. Good support from the nice kids too. I'd single out Stewpot, Precious and Clare from Gripper's year, and Jonah and Annette from the new intake. No wonder I always used to wonder what all the fuss about Tucker was for.

The only note that rings false for me is the English teacher Mr McGuffy. He's been given a quirk where he only speaks in long and complicated words (nice running joke where Stewpot translates for the rest of the class). But the actor sounds like he's reading off a script, so it just doesn't seem natural. Plus he's a bit uncomfortably comic-reliefy a lot of the time. That's probably from an unfairly adult perspective, though.

[Clive]

The only note that rings false for me is the English teacher Mr McGuffy. He's been given a quirk where he only speaks in long and complicated words (nice running joke where Stewpot translates for the rest of the class). But the actor sounds like he's reading off a script, so it just doesn't seem natural. Plus he's a bit uncomfortably comic-reliefy a lot of the time. That's probably from an unfairly adult perspective, though.

I was thinking about this the other day and realised that many of my teachers were complete eccentrics, the likes of which I have never met in later life. I recognised Mr McGuffy from my own school experience and also realise that many other of my teachers had strange quirks which were the same or exceeded what Grange Hill showed. Mr Bronson was my French teacher down to a tee... An old hand who was from a different era and had different expectations from his contemporaries. My Mr Bronson wore the same blazer with the same strange crest on his jacket pocket every single day for the 6 years I was at the School. With hindsight, who wears exactly the same clothes to work each and every day ?

Each teacher had their quirks which us classmates would pick up on, play with and impersonate (and exaggerate)

Grange Hill, at least in the early years, described this relationship between student and teacher well. I think GH started to fall when it became a little bit too touchy/feely between staff and students, which was just not representative of the School I went to. There was never anything more than a professional relationship between teacher and student.

[SgtPepper]

On the subject of teachers, but as a slight aside from Grange Hill, how many teachers did people encounter during their school years who they really disliked? I don't mean they were just bad teachers or you dreaded their lessons because of a particular subject or a teacher was a bit too strict. How many did you really just dislike because they were just thoroughly horrible people? I only really disliked two. My last teacher at primary school everyone hated. There was just nothing to like about her. She'd be very old or dead by now but my God she was horrible. The other one was an English teacher in the Third Year at comprehensive. I've never heard anyone else have any strong opinions about her either way. She'd only be around 60ish now (which of course doesn't preclude her from being dead but it's less likely) and I'd happily punch her lights out. :-)

[Nick Cooper 625]

My geology teacher was a right twat. After suffering him for the first year, he went off for some sort of re-training, so we had a much younger supply teacher taking over. The class went from mostly just about scraping by, to actually exceling, and some of us were even doing past O-level papers covering the stuff we'd already done to standard he reckoned would see us passing the real thing the following year. Unfortunately, when that came around, our original teacher was back, still a twat, and most of us subsequently failed.

[rachel leah]

In Primary and Middle School at age 7 I had a Miss Jones. I think I can say her true name safely because Jones is such a common surname. Anyway, she is probably dead by now with any luck. Looking back I see that she detested children, detested her job and detested life. I remember her screaming at little 7 year olds everyday and everyone hated her. I remember being bawled at for what seems like ages for not looking up a word in a dictionary and daring to ask for help. I did look it up but *really* did not see it the first time round but she did not believe me.
The following year I had another woman by the name of Miss Smith. She was not evil to everyone, only to a select few. I was her pet hate. She shouted at me that I was "useless" and "pathetic" so many times every day that I would regularly go home and cry. So my parents came in to have a friendly chat with her. They had to do it 3 times that year before she would leave me alone.
After I left I heard that she picked on a little boy in the exact same way she picked on me but his parents were more assertive than mine in that they properly complained and got her sacked.
She also married a builder who started a fire in the school the year I was there.

Another bitter bovine spinster later on in Middle School was the same. Those 3 experiences set me dead against corporal punishment in schools. When you leave a small child in school, you don't know who you are leaving them with. Some teachers are just ordinary people but some are horrible.

I liked the observation about McGuffy and the eccentrics at school. I only remember them in Secondary School. I had a music teacher who smoked a pipe and was like Mr Bronson in character and strictness, but not in clothing. He always wore an ill fitting sweater and trousers that looked 15-25 years old. Occasionally he'ed wear an ancient jacket. There'ed be jokes about what jumble sale he'ed gone to this time. I understand people dressing in really old clothes for a manual/menial job where you sensibly don't want to get your good clothes messed, or people who are in financial difficulties. But that teacher was at that job for 30 years. He dressed the same the whole 6 years I was there.

There was a nice Maths teacher who was rumoured to be gay. He might not have been gay. Maybe he just happened to act camp. He was a confirmed batchelor who lived with his Mother up to when she died when he neared 50 years old. He was an avid birdwatcher and obsessed Sheffield Wednesday fan which he would always get into his maths lessons and every conversation.
He was loved so much that when government cuts forced the head to give him early retirement, the head himself decided to take retirement in protest.

I wonder if they still have eccentric teachers in schools today.

[Mickey]

I didn't have any quirky teachers. I must have gone to a very boring school! Although, come to think of it, my Physics teacher did wear exactly the same thing every day for the five years that I knew him. And he would have been just twenty-six when I first met him, making that sports jacket of his a very strange choice. I wouldn't generally expect to see it on anybody under fifty.

As far as horrible teachers go, I did have a terrifying teacher for a while at infant school. Sounds like your Miss Jones, Rachel. She must have been very young, thinking back, but all I knew at the time was that she was very tall, very scary, and best avoided. We had some student teachers placed with us for a while, and she worried them. She got sacked eventually for having an affair with somebody's father. I wouldn't ordinarily celebrate adultery, but I'm all for it in that instance. The teacher that I had after escaping from her wasn't a lot better though. She was very fond of choosing favourites, and altogether too free with her hands and her ruler with the rest of us whenever she was having a bad day. Secondary school was a doddle in comparison, at least on the teacher front. Least said about the kids the better!

Little wonder really that GH did as well as it did for so long, when you think what a rich seam of drama there is in the average school life. It's odd that there's not been a replacement for it by now.

[Clive]

There must be something about primary school teachers. The woman I had in the final year was a complete bully who also had a number of favorites and those she hated. I was in the latter group. Up until that point I had been in the middle to upper part of the class in terms of ability. During that year I fell to the bottom, she advised my parents about not entering me into the 11+ exams for the local grammar as she thought it was beyond me and that my parents should not expect too much from me. If only she could see me now ! It took me a few years to re-build my confidence after a year in her class, or actually for the most time stood outside with my face to the wall after some perceived transgression in her invented book of rules in classroom etiquette. She introduced one rule that if the class made even the slightest noise whilst she wasn't looking, she would elect someone to stand outside the classroom for 30 minutes, that person was always me which of course caused the class to play up only to see me being marched out of the room.

Saying that, teaching must be a tough job for a person as the responsibility for teachers is huge and will effect their pupils complete lives, for the negative if they don't do it right.

[Mickey]

Great fight scene in episode 6x12. Really good stuff. The only annoying thing is how white the staff are; in the midst of this racial tension storyline, it would be nice if the black teachers were given a voice. The rather good Miss Peterson from the previous series seems to have left, and although there's a glimpse of a black teacher in the background in one episode, nobody seems to have thought to get him involved. Much though I love Gripper's frequent clashes with Hopwood, it might have been nice to have given him a black teacher to confront as well. I suppose there's an argument that it would have accelerated his expulsion, but it does feel like there's something missing in the story.

[rachel leah]

Great fight scene in episode 6x12. Really good stuff. The only annoying thing is how white the staff are; in the midst of this racial tension storyline, it would be nice if the black teachers were given a voice. The rather good Miss Peterson from the previous series seems to have left, and although there's a glimpse of a black teacher in the background in one episode, nobody seems to have thought to get him involved. Much though I love Gripper's frequent clashes with Hopwood, it might have been nice to have given him a black teacher to confront as well. I suppose there's an argument that it would have accelerated his expulsion, but it does feel like there's something missing in the story.

That was a good episode. A great fight scene and Stewpot and Claire discovered kissing in the cupboard and being suspended.
I wouldn't have wanted anything to accelerate Gripper's expulsion so I am glad they forgot about the female black teacher in earlier series.
Mark Savage was a good child actor as Gripper. He seems to have been wasted in adulthood by television.
I also wonder if there were no black teachers because a lot of the black people who were in Britain then were of the 1950's and 60's immigrant generation and were generally nurses, NHS workers, busdrivers; basically the manpower jobs that were needed then. I think it took another generation before black people got the chance to be teachers, doctors and into a more diverse array of professions in large numbers. I only remember seeing my first black teacher in 1988 and she was quite young. The black male teacher they had in the 1986 series was also quite young-ish.

Series 6 was in 1983 and the one soft female teacher in the fight is shown to be totally uneffective and needs help from the tough males. They would never have done that in the 1986 series. They also did not suspend Ant and Georgina when they were caught kissing by Mr Bronson in 1986, in the way they suspended Claire and Stewpot in this episode.

I have just finished watching the 1986 series. That series changes so much and gets so self important half way through. I really want to watch the 1987 series now just to see Imelda Davis get expelled and then leave it but they have taken that series off youtube.

[Ross]

ER Braithwaite - of To Sir With Love fame - became a teacher in London in the early-50s, but that was a rare event.

I was at school a twenty-minute train ride from Waterloo station from 1975-1987 and never saw a black teacher.

[Mickey]

Maybe you're both right. I'm from out in the sticks, so it's not something I can speak of with any authority at all. It does seem odd that a school like Grange Hill would have so few black teachers by 1983 though. Mind you, the overwhelming whiteness of the staff does provide for a few interesting examples of period attitudes that you hopefully wouldn't get nowadays. Mr Smart's complete lack of concern for the unfolding situation, for example. In one episode, Hopwood only just arrives in time to defuse a potentially very nasty confrontation between Gripper's gang and a band of black kids, and Smart passes through, makes some joke about the United Nations, and then leaves. Mrs McCluskey doesn't seem to see Gripper's racism as anything particularly bad either. She barely even gives him a slap on the wrist.

[rachel leah]

I have finally managed to start watching series 10 (1987). This is the series where it all goes downhill. Imelda gets expelled and then...no good storylines or really nasty bullies ever again.

It got a jarring start with Zammo and his year suddenly appearing in normal dress as 6th formers and Zammo is clean drugs. Baxter is briefly mentioned to have left to run a sports center. I remembered this series feeling badly started when I was 11, but thought it was just my memory.

An Art teacher runs after Danny Kendall begging him to paint a mural on a wall.
It suddenly starts gets really silly to see some rather large boys being terrified of smaller sized Imelda. It made more sense in the last series, when the boys she picked on were of smaller stature than the girls.

One interesting thing is that they all talk about "The New exams", which were really introduced the previous year in 1986. There is a surprising bit where Danny gives a little lecture to Mr Bronson about how the old exams made more sense with some people takes O-levels and some taking CSE's, or whatever it was. Danny Kendall suddenly sounded quite conservative and rather well articulated when he said that "there is no point" for the academic students to try if they are lumped into the same exam as students who are better suited for vocational courses. Now if they had more discussions like that with differing views from each character, this would have been an interesting series. Instead they introduce the donkey.

[Mickey]

Baxter is briefly mentioned to have left to run a sports center.

Yes. Despite having declared his lifelong loyalty to Grange Hill and Mrs McClusky in the last episode of the preceding series!

I don't think there's any problem with the boys being afraid of Imelda. She's a vindictive little snake, and you see that in what she does to Ziggy. Girl bullies are always a problem for boys to deal with anyway. You can't fight back like you can when boys are the bullies, or you'll be worse trouble than they'll ever be in. It's a complicated situation. Reflected perhaps in the way that Ziggy's "fight" against Imelda is always played for laughs, no matter how awful the things that she does clearly are.

Danny's an odd one too. I have no problem with the actor. He puts in a good performance, but the material they give him is so mixed. Sometimes he gets these great rants against the system, and the unfairness of it all; and then the next he's in some stupid comedy piece with Mr Bronson. His famous death is handled fairly well, but it still seems rather more shallow than the material from earlier years. I have a difficult relationship with the show in this era, as this was when I was finally the same age as the kids in Grange Hill, but I wasn't enjoying it nearly as much as I had done before.

Still, it's not as bad as it could be! Wait until Mauler McCaul, the least convincing bully in the history of television, puts in an appearance!

[sixpennypiece]

I don't think there's any problem with the boys being afraid of Imelda. She's a vindictive little snake, and you see that in what she does to Ziggy. Girl bullies are always a problem for boys to deal with anyway. You can't fight back like you can when boys are the bullies,

I have to disagree. I left school in 1980 and while it was still never the done thing for a boy to hit a girl any girl that was daft enough to try and bully a boy would have got a slap , specially if the bullying ever involved some of the heavier antics that Imelda got up to.
Even then we knew there was only one thing bullies understood so for that reason I could never take Imelda bullying the boys very seriously as someone like Ziggy would have simply punched her in the face .
Imelda bullying girls was a different matter and Gripper bullying girls added to his reputation as a first class slimeball

[Simon36]

Yes, she lives in Dundee now.

One thing: people often go on about the lack of swearing in Grange Hill, but did we ever really think about it as kids? It was so well scripted we were interested in more important things.

That race riot episode: blimey that fight scene is still quite shocking to this day!

[Nick Cooper 625]

One thing: people often go on about the lack of swearing in Grange Hill, but did we ever really think about it as kids? It was so well scripted we were interested in more important things.

I think when I was at school we were aware how unrealistic Grange Hill was in that respect, but still undertsand why that was so. Although we swore a lot ourselves, we never intentionally did so within earshot of adults, whether parents, teachers, or even strangers. These days too many kids don't have that restraint, even when they're talking to adults.

[Mike S]

I don't think the lack of swearing even occurred to me until I saw the Young Ones sketch.

Kids are quite good at subconsciously decoding TV and understanding why it can never be a totally faithful recreation of actual life. 'Flippin' 'eck' only really sounds jarring to adult ears.

[Simon36]

Flippin' 'eck caught on at my school, and got us told off for saying. I always remember at the same time Christopher Quentin on Coronation Street forever saying "flamin' Nora!"

[paul.austin]

Does GH even still have an online fanbase?

The big fansite that was run by Simon Luxton seems to have shut down following his death.

[rachel leah]

Does GH even still have an online fanbase?

The big fansite that was run by Simon Luxton seems to have shut down following his death.

I don't know about that fansite but this is this good blog and website:

http://grangehillgold.wordpress.com/


I am 3/4 the way through series 10 1987. Imelda's expulsion was good. There is a clip of it on youtube under "Imelda Davis expelled from Grange Hill". I like the understated hints of neglect at home.
After that there were good 2 episodes with them going out on a canal trip. The rest has been unrealistic.

Out of all the old archive TV series Grange Hill is the most evocative. It's not the best drama but it's the most evocative in bringing back memories and the feel of the time, and childhood
I particularly like it when they film out in London and you see how the world has changed. It's also good when the characters are not in school uniform and wear the fashions of the time or play 80's music .
I like being taken back to my childhood but it's a bitter sweet feeling, because it makes me sad when I start wondering where all the years have gone.

There's an annoying bit where one of the students goes to work with disabled kids. It looked like they filmed in a real special school in London circa 1986. I found that real life footage interesting. The plot was a bit preachy about people in wheelchairs. I am disabled and about 2 stages away from needing a wheelchair. I was a physically healthy child when I last saw it 26 years ago. Yet I don't like the PC stuff just as much as I didn't like it as a child. It's too preachy.

[paul.austin]

It was produced at the height of the mid-eighties "Handi-capable" crusade so I'm not really surprised.

[rachel leah]

Oh yes, I'ed forgotton about the Handi-capable campaign. :)

The last episode of Series 10 really is a "liberal's dream of how school should be" as someone back in the thread put it.
The staff and pupils play a cricket match on a sunny Saturday, then they all dance at a disco together.
It's strange how the series all changed from 1986-7.

There is a silly bit where a disabled boy gets his revenge on Trever Cleavor by running over his toes with a wheelchair.

I've no desire to watch more, like I did at the end of series 9 1986.

[SgtPepper]

Of all the episodes they could have shown for Christmas BBC4 went for the very unseasonal drug episode from Series 9.

[Mike S]

Worth it for Laura's 'I can lip-read!' swing from the Routemaster though.

Mausoleum Clubbers should adore said moment: it's textbook 'You couldn't do that these days'.

[GarethR]

Of all the episodes they could have shown for Christmas BBC4 went for the very unseasonal drug episode from Series 9.

It's not the unseasonality so much as the fact that it's a somewhat atypical episode - no school scenes and a small cast. I suppose it effectively illustrates how hard-hitting GH could be for a teatime kids' drama in the mid-80s, but you'd never pick it as an example of the imperial-phase GH everybody remembers. Probably the only thing most people recall of that episode is the final shot.

Actually, what really struck me is how much it looked and sounded like an 80s episode of EastEnders.

[Paul Hayes]

Of all the episodes they could have shown for Christmas BBC4 went for the very unseasonal drug episode from Series 9.

It's not the unseasonality so much as the fact that it's a somewhat atypical episode - no school scenes and a small cast. I suppose it effectively illustrates how hard-hitting GH could be for a teatime kids' drama in the mid-80s, but you'd never pick it as an example of the imperial-phase GH everybody remembers. Probably the only thing most people recall of that episode is the final shot.

Actually, what really struck me is how much it looked and sounded like an 80s episode of EastEnders.

I liked the Pet Shop Boys on the soundtrack - it was exactly the sort of track you might pick to evoke the era if you were making something set in 1986 now.

[Mike S]

Yeah, although you probably wouldn't pick Adam Ant's Vive Le Rock.

It was atypical, but then so was the Play School edition they picked: no toys, no window, two (relatively) forgotten presenters. You know more about this, Gareth, but do you think that was because loads of the shows are tricky to clear re third-party rights?

The Blue Peter edition had already been shown on BBC4, so I suspect that's why they dug it out again.