Genesis Documentary

What's currently on the box
Post Reply
User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Im suspecting that in any random sample of archive tv fans there are a few prog rockers.

Did anyone watch the Genesis doc last night? Plenty that could be said about it (such as how terrible it was that poor Ray Wilson was completely airbrushed out of their history) but more, what was going on with the 3D photographs? How did they do that and why? It looked like a pop up book!

User avatar
Ian Wegg
625 lines
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:10 pm

Old photographs in 3D

Post by Ian Wegg »

Simon36 wrote: but more, what was going on with the 3D photographs? How did they do that and why? It looked like a pop up book!
I'm glad you brought that up, I've been meaning to ask that for a while. I've noticed it a lot recently, it was particularly prevalent in the recent documentary about the royal cousins and a few other WW1 related programmes. Done well, i.e. sparingly, it can be quite effective but you're right about the Genesis doc, it was too heavy handed.

I'd really like to know how it is done as I have a use for the technique. I can see how it would be possible with a lot of Photoshop work but there is obviously some piece of software that can do it now.

~iw

ctraynor
D-MAC
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:43 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by ctraynor »

I watched it as an old fan. Yes, it was a bit rough on young Ray. Good to see the others gathered together and interesting to see Peter Gabriel and Mike Rutherford sharing a laugh about Tony Banks in his presence there. I'd always got the impression that Banks was a bit bad tempered. Also glad to see an interview with Anthony Philips and fair tribute paid to him. Being a fan it was nice to see it all backed up by a couple of people whose work I like, Kate Mossman and Al Murray.

User avatar
Nick Cooper 625
D-MAC
Posts: 968
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:42 am
Location: Hither Green, London
Contact:

Re: Old photographs in 3D

Post by Nick Cooper 625 »

Ian Wegg wrote:
Simon36 wrote: but more, what was going on with the 3D photographs? How did they do that and why? It looked like a pop up book!
I'm glad you brought that up, I've been meaning to ask that for a while. I've noticed it a lot recently, it was particularly prevalent in the recent documentary about the royal cousins and a few other WW1 related programmes. Done well, i.e. sparingly, it can be quite effective but you're right about the Genesis doc, it was too heavy handed.

I'd really like to know how it is done as I have a use for the technique. I can see how it would be possible with a lot of Photoshop work but there is obviously some piece of software that can do it now.

~iw
I'm grumbled about this before - it's used almost like an apology: "Sorry we haven't got any moving pictures of the person we're talking about, but here's a naff attempt at pretending we have..."

From a technical point of view it doesn't look so difficult - just cut out the person/s, enlarge them, and add lateral movement against the (reduced) background, avoiding where there isn't any because the original person/s obscured it.
"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo." [Wells]

GarethR
HD
Posts: 1160
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by GarethR »

The basic process is very simple, but it takes skill to pull off properly. As you've guessed, the prep work is all done in Photoshop (there's no software that does it all automagically).

You take your source still and use it to create a multi-layered image, with every individual person (or other element you want to appear to "pop out" from the background) isolated on their own layer. On the background layer, you paint out all the people - this is where a lot of the skill comes in, creating a seamless clean background plate. Say your source photo is of a group of people standing in front of a wall, your background plate will need to be just the wall, as if nobody's standing in front of it. Photoshop has numerous tools you can use to achieve this, such as the clone tool and content-aware fill.

Then you simply load this multilayer image into your motion graphics app of choice - AfterEffects, Motion, Smoke, Flame, Nuke, whatever - reposition all the elements in 3D space (so the background is furthest back, and all the individual people are progressively closer) and then animate the virtual camera. The illusion of movement is created entirely by the way you animate the camera, you're not actually moving any of the elements of the picture. Add some virtual depth of field, and you've got a 3D image (well, 2D in 3D space really, also known as "flying postcards") that adds a bit of life to what would otherwise be a normal flat still.

As a technique it's extremely well established, it's a good 15 years old, if not older. A typical tutorial demonstrating pretty much all of the steps can be viewed here: AfterEffects: 2D photo into 3D scene

Here's another one offering a more advanced effect using Photoshop's Vanishing Point filter - Create a 3D room from a still photo

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Thank you for that explanation, even I could follow that! Can't say I like the technique though. Flying postcards may have been around for fifteen years but to paraphrase Sybil Fawlty, "it's only know we're seeing them on television" isn't it?

User avatar
Scary
625 lines
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Scary »

The first place I remember seeing it was on the series Comedy Connections. It was on the verge of being overused there but they got away with it as it fitted in with the family tree style graphics.

Brian F
D-MAC
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:09 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Brian F »

Surely this could have been done years ago with Quantel Paintbox, but I suspect it would have taken much longer to execute.

brigham
HD
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by brigham »

Is this the effect which has been 'done to death' on feature film captions for YONKS? Where the words slowly drift side-to-side over the background?
When I first saw it, I thought I needed to come off the Valium.
It appears in the start-up screens of GTA V, too.
I have an idea that something similar was used in Jackanory, although not so complex; a carefully-arranged slow zoom, perhaps?

GarethR
HD
Posts: 1160
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by GarethR »

Simon36 wrote: Flying postcards may have been around for fifteen years but to paraphrase Sybil Fawlty, "it's only know we're seeing them on television" isn't it?
No, it's been around on TV for as long as the technique has existed. TV has more use for it than movies, really.
Brian F wrote:Surely this could have been done years ago with Quantel Paintbox, but I suspect it would have taken much longer to execute
You'd have to have been a masochist to try and do it on an old Paintbox, which wasn't really an animation tool anyway - it was intended for designing still frames. Modern Paintboxes *do* have full animation facilities.

The key to it is the virtual camera operating in 3D space, which is absolutely basic stuff in all motion graphics apps now, but which didn't exist on Quantel gear until relatively recently. To do it on any "classic" Quantel stuff you'd have to animate each layer separately with its own DVE move.
brigham wrote:Is this the effect which has been 'done to death' on feature film captions for YONKS? Where the words slowly drift side-to-side over the background?
No, don't think so. If you want to drift a caption across the screen that's just a basic DVE move, you don't need to be working in 3D space.

lovecraft
625 lines
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:39 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by lovecraft »

Just watched a chunk of this, lost interest as the 80's dawned but, no wonder old Steve Hackett is a bit miffed. His solo career largely ignored, cut out of the camera shot bar his left knee for a lot of the time, not to mention Tony Banks calling his Firth of Fifth solo a bit stiff and then cutting to Daryl Steurmer performing said solo in ultra-noodly style as if to say, "this is how to do it properly Steve!!"

For a hardcore proghead, the docs accompanying the 2007 box are your best bet.

User avatar
Bob Richardson
625 lines
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:47 pm
Location: Gallifrey west

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Bob Richardson »

Brian F wrote:Surely this could have been done years ago with Quantel Paintbox, but I suspect it would have taken much longer to execute.
Yes Brian, you are quite right. We did it with Paintbox for the 40th anniversary "Grandstand" programme, where photographic images of the "Grandstand" studio over the years were "dismantled" by our designer, Karen Tunmore, who removed the presenters, created multi-layered images and clean background plates by removing foreground elements (saved separately to PVRs) and then animated in real time. Karen turned flat photographs into deep multi-layered shots, defocusing some elements to exaggerate the depth of field. It worked very well indeed, but was simplified in rehearsal (a great shame) as the decision was taken to do all of the sequences live on TX. The multi-layered rehearsal sequences looked very good indeed in 1998.

And yes, it took a long time to do - almost three days of Paintbox work to create five or six sequences.
"Forfar 5 - East Fife 4"

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

lovecraft wrote:Just watched a chunk of this, lost interest as the 80's dawned but, no wonder old Steve Hackett is a bit miffed. His solo career largely ignored, cut out of the camera shot bar his left knee for a lot of the time, not to mention Tony Banks calling his Firth of Fifth solo a bit stiff and then cutting to Daryl Steurmer performing said solo in ultra-noodly style as if to say, "this is how to do it properly Steve!!"

For a hardcore proghead, the docs accompanying the 2007 box are your best bet.
Yes that Firth of Fifth thing was shocking.

User avatar
Beaker
625 lines
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Beaker »

Watched this last night. I think it would be best described as ‘the edited version’. I’m sure there are lots of stories to be told, but nothing much was forthcoming. Anyone with even a slight knowledge of Genesis would have learnt nothing from this programme.

I can see why Steve Hackett is..erm, hacked off due to no coverage of his solo career. Just a mention of GTR (who got quite a bit of airplay at the time IIRC) or the Genesis Revisited album would have been nice. His stuff is far more interesting than the bland pop that Mike & the Mechanics churned out anyway.

There was a little too much focus on the ‘hit’ period when Genesis were, for me anyway, at their least interesting and almost indistinguishable from Collins’s dreadful solo output.

In my stand-up days I used to perform a song what I’d wrote called Phil Collins (He’s really, really nice) such was his annoying ubiquity at the time.

Must admit I’ve only recently warmed to the Phil Collins era recently and then only up to a point (before the hits, really). I’m more of a fan of the Foxtrot/Nursery Crime era.

And, yes, the split with Collins and the Calling All Stations era was completely ignored as was the reunion gig with Gabriel at the Milton Keynes bowl…most odd.

A few more well known fans might have been nice too, maybe Fish, Bill Bailey or Robert Peston. Fish also worked with Tony Banks a couple of times and arguably owes some of his early success to Genesis so would have been an obvious choice of interviewee.

Gabriel, as always, comes across as a lovely guy, Collins is a Tory so has little or no redeeming features anyway but Tony Banks came across as a bit of an arse in my opinion.

Johnathan King appearing on screen was a spit-out-your-tea moment, although his appearance was wholly justified. As usual he seemed untroubled by self-doubt.

The whole show was certainly not up to the usual standard of music docs such as you might see on Beeb Four.
If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!

ctraynor
D-MAC
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:43 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by ctraynor »

Like I said, it was always obvious Tony Banks was a moody sort. To be that blunt in his negative views about Steve Hackett's music on camera while sitting near him anyway makes me wonder if Banks is really all there. As with the Beatles, I like the entire Genesis saga (or as near as...). I even thought a fair smattering of Phil Collins' solo stuff was ok. I'll try to catch the other docs on the band mentioned but it was good to see the Old Genesians in the same room together.

It would have been good to hear Gabriel mention Genesis' benefit gig in, was in 1982?, to help with his World Music project.

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Beaker wrote: Collins is a Tory so has little or no redeeming features anyway .
He isn't actually a Tory. People shouldn't need to be reminded not to believe what they read in the tabloids.

And even if he was, that doesn't make him have little (sic) or no redeeming features. That's just silly.

Sorry to sound terse about it, but I feel sorry for PC if people are still peddling this nonsense about. It clutters up talk about what were to a lot of people a superb band. The bloke was an amazing drummer. And that's all he ever wanted to be.

User avatar
Beaker
625 lines
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Beaker »

I was speaking a little tongue in cheek there because I loathe and detest Tories more than Kirk hates the Klingons, and Collins is, of course an excellent drummer.

Did he not state that he would leave the country if Labour got in? Ok, that doesn’t make him a Tory but does go some way towards indicating his leanings.

And I have NEVER read a tabloid newspaper!

*Flounces off, Guardian under arm…copy of ABACAB playing on iPod*

(Have actually spent the last three days listening to little else but mid-period Genesis, still not keen on the ‘hit’ period but there is some great stuff in there.)
If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!

brigham
HD
Posts: 1081
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by brigham »

Beaker wrote: Collins is a Tory so has little or no redeeming features anyway .
In that case, they're all a bunch of Public Schoolboys, so their entire output has no musical relevance.

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Beaker wrote:I was speaking a little tongue in cheek there because I loathe and detest Tories more than Kirk hates the Klingons, and Collins is, of course an excellent drummer.

Did he not state that he would leave the country if Labour got in? Ok, that doesn’t make him a Tory but does go some way towards indicating his leanings.

And I have NEVER read a tabloid newspaper!

*Flounces off, Guardian under arm…copy of ABACAB playing on iPod*

(Have actually spent the last three days listening to little else but mid-period Genesis, still not keen on the ‘hit’ period but there is some great stuff in there.)
I still can't enjoy Abacab. It seemed like a deliberate attempt to p** off their fans at the expense of the music. I love Me and Sarah Jane but so much of it is so dull, and I can't believe anyone can sit through all three and a half minutes of Whodunnit.

Another Record begins so beautifully and then oh dear. Terrible words too!

User avatar
Beaker
625 lines
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Beaker »

Lyrically, there is a definite drop in quality from the days of Gabriel IMO. I love the surrealism of his lyrics and coming to Genesis via Marillion, the Gabriel era will always be my favourite with Foxtrot, Trespass and Nursery Crime being far and away my faves.

The lyrics on Get em Out By Friday are great.

That said, and to make a nonsense of me not liking the ‘hit’ period of Genesis, Land of Confusion is probably my favourite Collins era track….and the version by Disturbed is awesomeness on a stick.
If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Ooooh I dont know that version but I will seek it out.

Agree about Gabriel's lyrics. I was never that sure for years but the whole surreal vision of England stuff I find fascinating now. My favourite Genesis album changes often but I think I still have the warmest feelings for Trespass as it has such a beautiful pastoral feel in places and I do like the innocence of it all. Also the tracks that didn't make it to the record like Let Us Now Make Love are stunning and in my mind I lump them all in as one 60 minute record.

User avatar
Beaker
625 lines
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:22 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Beaker »

Simon36 wrote:Ooooh I dont know that version but I will seek it out.
It is good, very...METAL! :o)

To my knowledge there haven't been many covers of Genesis songs. Of the top of my head I can only think of that an Fish's version of 'I Know What I Like..' I wonder why.
If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One!

User avatar
Richard Charles Skryngestone
625 lines
Posts: 449
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Richard Charles Skryngestone »

Transatlantic did a medley(sort of) of Watcher of the Skies/Firth of Fifth on their 'Live in America' album, then Return of the Giant Hogweed on 'The Whirlwind'.

And then there's 'Grendel'.(I'll get my coat...)
Great News Inside, Chums!

User avatar
Simon36
HD
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:43 am

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon36 »

Beaker wrote:
Simon36 wrote:Ooooh I dont know that version but I will seek it out.
It is good, very...METAL! :o)

To my knowledge there haven't been many covers of Genesis songs. Of the top of my head I can only think of that an Fish's version of 'I Know What I Like..' I wonder why.
There was an album of Genesis covers a few years ago by more recent prog bands and some of them were quite impressive. The programme also mentioned someone noticeable covering Back in NYC but I can't remember who it was now!

User avatar
Simon Coward
D-MAC
Posts: 916
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:56 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Simon Coward »

Simon36 wrote:There was an album of Genesis covers a few years ago by more recent prog bands and some of them were quite impressive.
There's one called The Fox Lies Down, though I wouldn't call too many of the artists on there "more recent prog bands", so perhaps there's more than one.
Simon36 wrote:The programme also mentioned someone noticeable covering Back in NYC but I can't remember who it was now!
Jeff Buckley covered that track, but I don't know if he was the one mentioned in the programme.
We all have to eat a peck of dirt before we die.

Richardr1
405 lines
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Genesis Documentary

Post by Richardr1 »

Simon Coward wrote: perhaps there's more than one.
Another one was called Supper's Ready, with the likes of Enchant and Shadow Gallery on it, but is almost 20 years old now.

Post Reply