Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

What's not currently on the box
drmih
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by drmih »

As I remember it I think that Ian was on reasonable terms with Worldwide at the time that Shada was been completed - I'm sure he showed it to me at the same time that he had been working on Planet of Giants (specifically Eps 4). I'm not sure if it was because it was Ian, but rather that there were still some dvd releases to go, and animating stories wasn't at it's peak (had they done Invasion at that stage) and it was not perceived a finished product - with hindsight it is pretty good compared to some of the later animations. There was also the issue of TB's voice-over - he wanted a largish sum to do it for Ian, so I guess the BBC would also have to pick this up, and it might just not have made financial sense. Now with nothing else to release, and revenue from downloads, I guess it must.

Duncan
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DV

Post by Duncan »

ian b wrote:
Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:
Duncan wrote:I would honestly like to know precisely WHEN and under WHAT specific circumstances the BBC's decision to animate Shada came about?
I'd guess around the time Worldwide had evaluated the returns from the animated POWER...

The perils of quotes. It wasn’t me who said that :)

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by ian b »

Sorry Duncan - amended!

simon10011
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by simon10011 »

Well i never got around to buying the legacy boxset as i understood the version of Shada was exactly the same as the old VHS release. So i'm looking forward to this!!
Isn't it true to say that a lot of fans just buy the dvd's for the extra's anyway having seen some of the stories numerous times! I know the extra's are always the first thing i look at.

Richard Bignell
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Richard Bignell »

Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:And Levine's feeling is clearly as he spent over £40 000 on his version, because the BBC clearly had no interest in such a project, to now have the BBC come along and do the exact same thing... Can you not see the reason he may be miffed? or do you simply chalk that up to more raving petulant lunacy?
Magically, Ian has suddenly inflated the figure by some £15,000 on the definitive figure he gave at the time he actually made the thing - that of £24,500 - and that was largely funded from other people, so it wasn't Ian's money.

And as I mentioned earlier, the potential for use on a BBC DVD was a secondary concern.

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Billy Smart
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DV

Post by Billy Smart »

Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:I believe what we have here is the same old reality where the BBC Worldwide's "view" on things differs from what the average person actually perceives. As the obvious example, there was the remastered Aztecs, which included the recovered episode from Galaxy 4. The BBC people could not comprehend why fans would feel ripped off having to double dip for The Aztecs to get the Galaxy 4 footage, rather than putting the Galaxy 4 footage on a separate (never-before-released-on-DVD) serial. The standard response was to mention how many years separated the two DVD releases of The Aztecs!
And quite right they were, too. We got to see Galaxy 4 relatively soon after it was recovered, on a normally-priced disc that also had an improved version of The Aztecs with some interesting additional material on. That's not what I'd call a rip-off. BBC Wordwide's approach was probably closer to the perceptions of the "average person" than strange fans who managed to derive some outrage from the release.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Mark »

IIRC. the "Aztecs" SP had already been planned when the "Galaxy 4" episode was added as an extra incentive to double dip, buyers were always going to get new releases.

I didn't mind the SP's, better quality and a chance to update extras and keep them in line with earlier releases.

It's possible the decision to do "Shada" may be in part to do with disappointment over the "Legacy" set version just being the standard VHS release, whatever the reason, I'm just glad it's finally happened and am really looking forward to it.

By the way, it's not just David Brierley, Denis Carey is no longer with us either ( and Gerald Campion and the Think Tank mob, but all those scenes were completed anyway),
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Richard Charles Skryngestone
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DV

Post by Richard Charles Skryngestone »

Billy Smart wrote:
Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:I believe what we have here is the same old reality where the BBC Worldwide's "view" on things differs from what the average person actually perceives. As the obvious example, there was the remastered Aztecs, which included the recovered episode from Galaxy 4. The BBC people could not comprehend why fans would feel ripped off having to double dip for The Aztecs to get the Galaxy 4 footage, rather than putting the Galaxy 4 footage on a separate (never-before-released-on-DVD) serial. The standard response was to mention how many years separated the two DVD releases of The Aztecs!
And quite right they were, too. We got to see Galaxy 4 relatively soon after it was recovered, on a normally-priced disc that also had an improved version of The Aztecs with some interesting additional material on. That's not what I'd call a rip-off. BBC Wordwide's approach was probably closer to the perceptions of the "average person" than strange fans who managed to derive some outrage from the release.
So, the average person is in the habit of buying the same thing(in this case a DVD release of The Aztecs)twice? While only "strange fans" don't do that?

And are you seriously suggesting that the 'improved version of The Aztecs' was the bonus feature, while the Galaxy 4 episode was the meat of the release? That's the complete opposite of what someone just said.

Again, the average person, who is NOT an obsessive fan, having already bought The Aztecs, would feel angry and/or irritated that they would have to buy The Aztecs AGAIN if they wanted the recovered Galaxy 4 episode. Only the obsessive fan would feel no annoyance at buying two DVD copies of The Aztecs. You have things backwards.

Which is precisely why I said that it would have been better had the Galaxy 4 material been placed on another serial's DVD. One that hadn't already been released on DVD before. And don't give me the "relatively soon after it was recovered" rot either. That didn't appear to be any sort of issue with The Underwater Menace, did it?
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Richard Charles Skryngestone
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Richard Charles Skryngestone »

Richard Bignell wrote:
Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:And Levine's feeling is clearly as he spent over £40 000 on his version, because the BBC clearly had no interest in such a project, to now have the BBC come along and do the exact same thing... Can you not see the reason he may be miffed? or do you simply chalk that up to more raving petulant lunacy?
Magically, Ian has suddenly inflated the figure by some £15,000 on the definitive figure he gave at the time he actually made the thing - that of £24,500 - and that was largely funded from other people, so it wasn't Ian's money.

And as I mentioned earlier, the potential for use on a BBC DVD was a secondary concern.
You can mention it much as you like. But Ian Levine did make the offer. Which the BBC rejected.

As for the exact number, I am unaware of the specifics, so can't comment. But then only Ian himself can know for certain. And it's possible that he underestimated the actual eventual cost at the time.

But whether it was £24 500 or £41 000 or anything else, the other fact remains. The BBC showed no intention whatsoever of doing this. Out of his own love for the show, Ian Levine assembled all but one person from the available original cast. He recorded the audio. He managed to organise the animation. And he ended up with a complete Shada, marrying the recorded footage from 1979 with the newly-made animation. Because the BBC had no interest in it at all. With the BBC instead simply putting out the 1992 VHS release on DVD. Thus, Levine spent a minimum of £24 500 to get a complete Shada for the fans, but the BBC preferred the incomplete one.

And now, years later, the BBC decide to animate the missing sequences of Shada, and marry them up with newly-recorded audio! And people follow that up by insulting Levine, and calling him a "petulant child"!

Of course, it was Levine who also had the earlier idea decades ago to join the recorded footage with linking narrative material. Only for the BBC to eventually, in 1992, get Tom Baker to provide linking narrative material. So I suppose there is a sort of precedent at work here. Thus, I look forward to the BBC doing animated versions of stories like 'Yellow Fever' sometime around 2025....
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Billy Smart
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DV

Post by Billy Smart »

Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:So, the average person is in the habit of buying the same thing(in this case a DVD release of The Aztecs)twice? While only "strange fans" don't do that?

And are you seriously suggesting that the 'improved version of The Aztecs' was the bonus feature, while the Galaxy 4 episode was the meat of the release? That's the complete opposite of what someone just said.

Again, the average person, who is NOT an obsessive fan, having already bought The Aztecs, would feel angry and/or irritated that they would have to buy The Aztecs AGAIN if they wanted the recovered Galaxy 4 episode. Only the obsessive fan would feel no annoyance at buying two DVD copies of The Aztecs. You have things backwards.

Which is precisely why I said that it would have been better had the Galaxy 4 material been placed on another serial's DVD. One that hadn't already been released on DVD before. And don't give me the "relatively soon after it was recovered" rot either. That didn't appear to be any sort of issue with The Underwater Menace, did it?
You wanted it on DVD, you got it on DVD. You'd have had to pay for a copy, however it came out. Why are you so angry about it? It just makes you come across as crazed about something that doesn't really matter. Unlike an "average person".

drmih
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by drmih »

I'm not sure what the issue is, to be honest. Ian got his Shada made and I don't think it was intended to be a commercial product. When it was complete it looked rather good (in my opinion) and I think that this is what led to discussions with the BBC. I don't remember it being point blank rejected, but just at that time they decided against it. It was their commercial decision to make - also you have to understand that some of Ian's projects are way off being commercially acceptable (the Dimensions in the ... was not great), and even Shada got mixed opinions based upon the snippets released. As I said earlier, I think that this was because the bar hadn't really been set for animations at that time. With respect to it being made available to fans regardless, the suggestion was that the BBC would be in uproar if that happened, but as I remember it was Ian who was against it, as having a working relationship with Worldwide he couldn't be seen to be releasing copy-write material - I'm not sure the BBC were ever asked or expressed an opinion. It was one of the animators who released it.
Now, several years later, with the BBC having a pseudo animation team, I presume that the intention is to keep them occupied with commercial projects, and the bean counters have identified what releases are likely to be financial successes.

Duncan
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Duncan »

I just love the idea of an “average person” wanting to buy a single episode of Galaxy 4!!

That concept alone shows how barmy this “debate” is. And we wonder why so many Doctor Who fans are viewed as “barkers”.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by brigham »

I thought the BBC had added the recently-found Galaxy 4 episode to the next upcoming release, which happened to be the Aztecs special edition.

If they had held it back until the next 'new to DVD' release, they would have had just as many complaints about that.
The very fact that they issued the 'special editions' before all of the stories were on DVD, was in itself a cause for complaint.

I bought the DVDs as they were released, even the McCoys, on the basis of quality. I had never seen such care and attention put into what is, after all, 'old telly'. Compare it with any other material from the time; it's unbeatable.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by ian b »

Richard Charles Skryngestone wrote:But Ian Levine did make the offer. Which the BBC rejected.
The people that then looked after "the brand" rejected it, for whatever reason(s). And now different people have made the decision to have another go at SHADA using a different team.

(I see SHADA as DW's "fourth plinth" - if you don't get on with what's there now, give it a while and something else will be along shortly.)


And now, years later, the BBC decide to animate the missing sequences of Shada, and marry them up with newly-recorded audio!
Do we know if Levine's contracts with the talent for his version included further exploration rights? If they didn't then any one person could scupper an official release by refusing permission, or hold out for a vastly inflated royalty. Which could mean starting again from scratch is the easier option.

Of course, it was Levine who also had the earlier idea decades ago to join the recorded footage with linking narrative material.
Whoop-de-woo - I'm sure if all the footage had been easily available to all, and not just some "super-fan" then we'd have been inundated with countless fan-made attempts at completing with damned tale.


Only for the BBC to eventually, in 1992, get Tom Baker to provide linking narrative material.
Are you suggesting that Levine's original mash-up of recorded material and scrolling text should have been released instead of the JNT/Worldwide effort? Or that BBCWW shouldn't have done anything with the held material because Levine had already tried it?

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by ian b »

Ignore - double post

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Mark »

I got a copy of that text/footage version at the time, it was a good effort back then ( saw the studio footage at a Con, early 80's, Birmingham I think), I'm certainly glad that money was found to do something with the material on VHS, and single episodes on the "Years" tapes too.

Wonder who is doing the Incidentals on the new one?
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The Black Nun
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by The Black Nun »

The original Shada video footage will have to be deinterlaced and slowed down to 24fps for bluray. That's going to look quite horrible.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by brigham »

The Black Nun wrote:The original Shada video footage will have to be deinterlaced and slowed down to 24fps for bluray. That's going to look quite horrible.
Why? Is BluRay not capable of displaying frame rates higher than 24?
What a let-down for an 'advanced' format.
HD-DVD can handle it, or so I believe.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Kieran Seymour »

The Black Nun wrote:The original Shada video footage will have to be deinterlaced and slowed down to 24fps for bluray. That's going to look quite horrible.
There's no need to slow it down to 24fps for the UK BD. It'll be 1080i50 and look just like it should do.

As an added bonus it'll be the best picture quality it's ever been seen at because of the better codecs used for BD.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Duncan »

Kieran Seymour wrote:
The Black Nun wrote:The original Shada video footage will have to be deinterlaced and slowed down to 24fps for bluray. That's going to look quite horrible.
There's no need to slow it down to 24fps for the UK BD. It'll be 1080i50 and look just like it should do.

As an added bonus it'll be the best picture quality it's ever been seen at because of the better codecs used for BD.
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Michael
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Michael »

Duncan wrote:Shush! Don’t let technical knowledge get in the way of conspiratorial ignorance...
Actually, it might still be a valid concern. If the "live" footage is at 50 frames then wouldn't it follow that the animation being spliced into it would also have to be? I don't really know how modern animation techniques work but if each frame is constructed individually then that would more than double the amount of work than would be required for a 24 fps piece. Would the BBC budget for this release run to those costs?

But then, if it's mostly location filming anyway, might it not already be at 24 fps? That in itself raises a similar question. If location filming was done at 24 fps and then edited into 50 fps studio recordings, wouldn't that just have been the same issue?

Forgive my technical ignorance (I appreciate that I could be talking bollocks here) but it's certainly got me puzzled.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by brigham »

It's perfectly normal for film at 25fps to be edited into interlaced video.
I'm not sure about the new BBC animation. Is it 25fps, or have they used 50 (at greater cost)?

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Michael »

brigham wrote:It's perfectly normal for film at 25fps to be edited into interlaced video.
You're right. If they can do it with film sequences then it should be the same process with animation.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Duncan »

Michael wrote:
Duncan wrote:Shush! Don’t let technical knowledge get in the way of conspiratorial ignorance...
Actually, it might still be a valid concern. If the "live" footage is at 50 frames then wouldn't it follow that the animation being spliced into it would also have to be? I don't really know how modern animation techniques work but if each frame is constructed individually then that would more than double the amount of work than would be required for a 24 fps piece. Would the BBC budget for this release run to those costs?

But then, if it's mostly location filming anyway, might it not already be at 24 fps? That in itself raises a similar question. If location filming was done at 24 fps and then edited into 50 fps studio recordings, wouldn't that just have been the same issue?

Forgive my technical ignorance (I appreciate that I could be talking bollocks here) but it's certainly got me puzzled.
BBC 16mm film inserts would have been shot at 25fps. The VT from 1979 would be PAL 50 interlaced fields per second (albeit transform decoded into component and then upscaled for this release).

As far as I remember they completed one studio session for Shada so the "finished" version from 1992 might be about 50/50 film/VT with lots of gaps of course reflecting the two studio sessions that were cancelled - its been 25 years since I looked at it. I presume they started with this for the modern day version as a guide before deciding what needed animating and what would be re-used from the studio sessions and film.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Brian F »

I would think that 24p would only be an idea for international/domestic single coding. All it would do would be save the cost of a 60i conversion, however a good standards converter should still give better results than 24p.

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Mark »

Presumably a sound-a-like or likes for both Carey and Brierley, as John Leeson was not involved apparently.

Their K9 voices were very different, of course.
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Mark »

Just heard the "Shada" release is a feature length film ( with a Cinema release) I can understand them doing that to try to recuperate the costs.

However if there is not a branching option to watch it as a serial, I will be bitterly disappointed, it was meant to be serial, also the cliff-hangers will be lost and I would have to set aside two and a half hours, every time I wanted to watch the bloody thing.

I might have to stick with the Levine version after all.
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Duncan »

Why on earth would you have to set aside 2.5 hours? There is such thing as a stop and a play button and DVDs have chapters...

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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Mark »

I've never heard of anyone, who watches half a feature film, and then leaves the second half for the following night.

There may be chapters, but Classic Who has something better, Episodes, there are plenty of people aside from me that sometimes watches the odd episode or one a night/week.

It was meant to be a serial and has some great cliffhangers, as I said I don't have a problem with a feature length version, but it would do no harm ( or any expense) to have the option to watch it as it was meant to be seen, a serial.

They didn't do it with "Power Of The Daleks", so why this one?

"Shada" has been a long line of disappointments, stretching back to 1979, this is the last chance to get it right, if there's no serial option then they have blown it again.
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Richard Charles Skryngestone
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Re: Doctor Who Classic Series and DVDs

Post by Richard Charles Skryngestone »

There are some people who will aggressively defend whatever actions 2|Entertain/BBC Worldwide/The Doctor Who Restoration Team/Current Who Showrunner (check as applicable) happen to take.

And the person who in this case is the paying customer will always be 'wrong'. Or just a grumbler.

it's actually an automatic, kneejerk response.
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